Legislature(2009 - 2010)BARNES 124

03/08/2010 01:00 PM House RESOURCES

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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
-- Continued at 6:00 pm Today --
Moved CSHJR 49(RES) Out of Committee
Moved HCS CSSJR 22(FSH) Out of Committee
Heard & Held
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
         HJR 49-OPPOSING EPA CLEAN AIR ACT REGULATIONS                                                                      
1:05:14 PM                                                                                                                    
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN  announced that  the first  order of  business is                                                               
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 49,  Urging the United States Congress                                                               
to   enact  S.J.   Res.  26,   a   resolution  disapproving   the                                                               
Environmental   Protection   Agency's   imposition   of   climate                                                               
regulations that would harm Alaska's  economy and the livelihoods                                                               
of the state's citizens.                                                                                                        
1:05:47 PM                                                                                                                    
JOHN  COAN,  Staff,  Representative Bill  Stoltze,  Alaska  State                                                               
Legislature, began by noting that  the sponsor has worked closely                                                               
with  U.S.  Senator  Lisa  Murkowski  on  the  issue  of  climate                                                               
regulations.   He said  HJR 49 is  a resolution  disapproving the                                                               
U.S.  Environmental Protection  Agency's (EPA)  intention to  use                                                               
the Clean Air  Act to impose backdoor climate  regulations.  Such                                                               
regulations would be hurtful to  all economic areas of Alaska and                                                               
would include  any areas that  produce greenhouse gases,  such as                                                               
Alaska's  refineries, pipelines,  hospitals, and  other entities.                                                               
In response  to Co-Chair Neuman,  he said the sponsor  is worried                                                               
that many  of the major  economic drivers  of the state  would be                                                               
severely  impacted  by  any   greenhouse  gas  and  environmental                                                               
regulations  imposed by  the EPA.   Over  80 percent  of Alaska's                                                               
unrestricted  general fund  revenue comes  directly from  oil and                                                               
1:07:33 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  COAN  pointed out  that  a  November  3, 2009,  letter  from                                                               
Governor Parnell  to U.S. Senators  Boxer and Inhofe  states that                                                               
Alaska  produces approximately  13  percent of  the nation's  oil                                                               
supply.    Alaska's  economy   relies  heavily  upon  responsible                                                               
development  of  natural  resources,  unburdened  by  superfluous                                                               
regulations;  the sponsor  therefore feels  this message  to stop                                                               
the EPA  from commencing on  this path  must be sent  to Alaska's                                                               
congressional  delegation  as  well  as  the  rest  of  the  U.S.                                                               
Congress.   He said the  U.S. Environmental Protection  Agency is                                                               
in the position  now of using its endangerment  finding, which is                                                               
a  scientific study  based on  six greenhouse  gas emissions,  to                                                               
create economy-wide  command and  control regulations  that would                                                               
stifle  the   economic  development  of  Alaska.     The  climate                                                               
regulations  would  be   fundamentally  detrimental  to  Alaska's                                                               
economy,   stifle   the   state's   economic   development,   and                                                               
potentially create enormous job losses within the state.                                                                        
1:09:05 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  GUTTENBERG   asked  who  the  sponsor   seeks  to                                                               
influence with this resolution.                                                                                                 
MR. COAN responded  that HJR 49 urges the U.S.  Congress to enact                                                               
U.S.  Senator  Lisa Murkowski's  Senate  Joint  Resolution 26,  a                                                               
resolution   that  would   disapprove   the  U.S.   Environmental                                                               
Protection  Agency's rule  relating to  the endangerment  finding                                                               
and the cause  or contribute findings for  greenhouse gases under                                                               
section 202(a) of the Clean Air Act.                                                                                            
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG inquired whether  there is an upside to                                                               
changing the carbons emissions.                                                                                                 
MR. COAN  replied the upsides  are very  minimal and most  of the                                                               
literature seen  by the  sponsor has  been to  the negative.   He                                                               
said  he  will get  back  to  Representative Guttenberg  in  this                                                               
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON  interjected he is  unsure he could ever  see an                                                               
upside  to having  a  non-elected  bureaucracy making  decisions.                                                               
The resolution  says this  issue should  be put  in the  hands of                                                               
elected officials who go home to face their constituents.                                                                       
1:12:04 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI  requested an explanation of  section 202                                                               
of the Clean Air Act.                                                                                                           
MR. COAN answered that section  202 deals specifically with motor                                                               
vehicle  emissions  and  fuel standards  and  the  curtailing  of                                                               
emissions from  the tailpipes of  passenger cars,  buses, trucks,                                                               
off-road  vehicles,   and  construction  equipment.     It  is  a                                                               
progressive limitation.                                                                                                         
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN requested  Mr. Coan to provide  copies of section                                                               
202 to committee members.                                                                                                       
1:13:39 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI  inquired how  long section 202  has been                                                               
around and why  it is impacting the state today  as opposed to 10                                                               
or 20 years ago.                                                                                                                
MR. COAN responded he does not  know, but he believes section 202                                                               
has been around  since the act went through and,  if not, then it                                                               
was part of the amendment in the 1970s.                                                                                         
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON  offered his belief  that there has been  a real                                                               
reluctance  by  previous  administrations  to  enact  such  wide-                                                               
sweeping  changes   through  an  agency  rather   than  the  U.S.                                                               
Congress.  However, this administration's  policy is different as                                                               
it is  exhibiting the  willingness to enact  laws and  to inflict                                                               
great pain on states through regulations and not through laws.                                                                  
1:15:13 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  OLSON stated  that  the  underlying research  [on                                                               
climate  change] is  flawed to  an  unknown degree  and for  that                                                               
reason he supports HJR 49.                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE   GUTTENBERG  asked   whether   someone  will   be                                                               
testifying  to  that effect  instead  of  just making  statements                                                               
about it being flawed.                                                                                                          
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN suggested  the sponsor  could be  asked to  find                                                               
someone to look into that.                                                                                                      
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN requested  Mr.  Coan to  talk  about what  other                                                               
countries are doing in regard to carbon emissions.                                                                              
MR. COAN answered  that his research was specifically  on the two                                                               
vehicles in  the U.S. Senate  - House Resolution 2454  and Senate                                                               
Bill  1733.    However,  the  sponsor  believes  that  the  Kyoto                                                               
Protocol is the wrong vehicle  to pursue these standards; rather,                                                               
it should  be taken care  of by the U.S.  Congress.  While  he is                                                               
not up on  the latest globally, he believes that  the push is for                                                               
some measure to  control greenhouse gas emissions.   He is unsure                                                               
of the  most common  or best  vehicle out there,  but he  is sure                                                               
U.S.  Senator  Murkowski's  office  has  looked  into  that  more                                                               
thoroughly than he has.                                                                                                         
1:17:31 PM                                                                                                                    
CO-CHAIR   NEUMAN  inquired   whether   the  U.S.   Environmental                                                               
Protection Agency would be imposing taxes on carbon emissions.                                                                  
MR. COAN responded the sponsor feels  that could very well be the                                                               
case.   If  the "cap  and trade"  tax goes  into effect,  federal                                                               
revenues would  go into the  billions of dollars and  there would                                                               
be detriments throughout the economy  due to industries having to                                                               
be curtailed.   In further  response, he explained that  if House                                                               
Resolution  2454 and  Senate  Bill 1733  are  enacted the  nation                                                               
would be  allotted to  produce only so  much in  greenhouse gases                                                               
and  this  would  also  go back  into  the  endangerment  finding                                                               
because  it  might  become  a more  severe  imposition  of  these                                                               
restrictions.   The nation's allotment  would have to  be divided                                                               
amongst all its  industries and the industries would  have to pay                                                               
to get their share; this tax  is where the federal revenues would                                                               
come in.   The sponsor feels this would be  especially unfair for                                                               
Alaska due to  the state's size, population,  arctic climate, and                                                               
so forth, and would unfairly hamper the state.                                                                                  
1:19:39 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE   KAWASAKI  inquired   whether   a  senate   joint                                                               
resolution by the U.S. Congress has the full effect of law.                                                                     
MR. COAN  replied he is  unsure, but he  does know from  a recent                                                               
conversation   with  the   National  Federation   of  Independent                                                               
Business (NFIB) that Senate Joint  Resolution 26 would have to be                                                               
heard on the floor.                                                                                                             
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG  surmised that Senate  Joint Resolution                                                               
26 has not yet been heard.                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE   KAWASAKI   asked   whether  the   Alaska   State                                                               
Legislature  is  being  asked  to weigh  in  on  a  congressional                                                               
resolution  even  though  it  is  unknown  what  a  congressional                                                               
resolution does.   In response  to Co-Chair Neuman,  he clarified                                                               
that he is  asking what Senate Joint Resolution  26 actually does                                                               
and whether it  is the sponsor's intent with HJR  49 to support a                                                               
resolution in Congress that has no effect of law.                                                                               
MR. COAN  said the  question is  out of  his realm  of expertise.                                                               
However, he could say for  sure that as a disapproval resolution,                                                               
HJR 49 has a place to go.                                                                                                       
1:21:49 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  GUTTENBERG, in  regard to  the whereas  clause on                                                               
page  3, line  17,  offered  his belief  that  development of  an                                                               
Alaska gas  pipeline would be  promoted, not made  harder, should                                                               
high carbon  emission fuels become  detrimental.  In  response to                                                               
several questions  from Co-Chair  Neuman, he  stated that  if oil                                                               
cannot be  used there  would be pressure  to find  a replacement,                                                               
and gas  would be one of  the main replacement fuels.   While the                                                               
intent is to  keep the U.S. Environmental  Protection Agency from                                                               
doing  things  that committee  members  think  it should  not  be                                                               
doing,  he thinks  members need  to have  a better  understanding                                                               
given  that gas  development in  Alaska is  the committee's  main                                                               
concern.  He thinks that  rather than hampering development of an                                                               
Alaska gas  pipeline, it  would be  enhanced, and  therefore this                                                               
whereas clause should not be included in HJR 49.                                                                                
MR.  COAN  responded that  this  whereas  clause is  specifically                                                               
about the  construction of a gas  pipeline.  If the  EPA gets its                                                               
hands around this  specific regulatory ability, it  might be able                                                               
to  stymie the  actual construction  of the  pipeline due  to the                                                               
greenhouse  gas that  would  be produced  by  the bulldozers  and                                                               
other construction equipment.                                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG  added that if greenhouse  gases become                                                               
the  important thing,  then  alternative fuels  will  need to  be                                                               
developed and he thinks  gas is it.  Thus, he  does not think the                                                               
proposed  gasline  would be  hurt  and  Alaska would  be  hurting                                                               
itself by including this whereas.                                                                                               
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN opened public testimony.                                                                                        
1:27:09 PM                                                                                                                    
MARY SHIELDS requested each committee  member to state whether he                                                               
or she thinks climate change  has positive or negative effects on                                                               
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN  replied that committees do  not generally answer                                                               
questions  from the  public.   He  asked whether  Ms. Shields  is                                                               
representing herself.                                                                                                           
MS. SHIELDS  said she is  representing herself and  believes that                                                               
Congress  will  not  be  passing   any  legislation  to  decrease                                                               
greenhouse emissions  because its  members are  pre-occupied with                                                               
getting  re-elected, not  finding solutions.   Solutions  require                                                               
people  to  change  behavior and  she  recognizes  that  changing                                                               
behavior is uncomfortable.   Fairbanks has a  serious air quality                                                               
problem,  yet people  are unwilling  to trade  in their  old wood                                                               
stoves for  cleaner, more  efficient new ones.   Congress  is not                                                               
composed  of  scientists,  while  the  EPA  employs  professional                                                               
scientists  who understand  the  problems  and create  scientific                                                               
solutions.  Alaska  is probably being impacted  by climate change                                                               
more than any  other place in the world.   For example, Fairbanks                                                               
has  had very  warm weather  this winter  and things  are thawing                                                               
early.  People who live  on permafrost are having severe problems                                                               
and  repair  of  roads  and infrastructures  will  be  much  more                                                               
expensive in  10 years than  dealing with  the problem now.   She                                                               
urged that  U.S. Senator Murkowski's  resolution not  be endorsed                                                               
and instead the EPA's scientists  should be relied upon and their                                                               
suggestions be  followed on how Alaska  can be a part  of solving                                                               
the problem rather than contributing to the problem.                                                                            
1:30:38 PM                                                                                                                    
MS.  SHIELDS  related  that  the   first  paragraph  of  Alaska's                                                               
constitution  states  dedication  to   the  principles  that  all                                                               
persons have  a natural  right to life,  liberty, the  pursuit of                                                               
happiness, and  the enjoyment of  rewards of their  own industry,                                                               
and  that  all  persons  have corresponding  obligations  to  the                                                               
people and to the state.   Thus, even if businesses lose a little                                                               
money on  this, they have  an obligation to provide  that natural                                                               
right  to  life, and  life  is  in  trouble in  Interior  Alaska.                                                               
Cooling off the  environment would help keep  the permafrost from                                                               
thawing and  would help the  Interior's trees from  becoming even                                                               
more infected  with insects, which  in turn increases  the tinder                                                               
problem for wildfires.   She asked committee members  to be brave                                                               
enough to stand up for what really needs to be done.                                                                            
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN urged  Ms. Shields  to  visit the  legislature's                                                               
website  should  she wish  to  ask  questions of  legislators  or                                                               
submit her viewpoints via public opinion messages.                                                                              
REPRESENTATIVE  GUTTENBERG noted  that Ms.  Shields lives  in his                                                               
district and runs a recreational dog mushing facility.                                                                          
1:32:27 PM                                                                                                                    
CARL  STRALEY (ph)  stated he  believes HJR  49 is  misguided and                                                               
shortsighted, as  is Senate  Joint Resolution 26.   The  world is                                                               
coming to  grips with  carbon emissions being  a problem  for the                                                               
climate as well as the acidity  of the oceans, something that may                                                               
already  be  impacting Alaska's  fisheries.    Scientists in  the                                                               
Environmental Protection  Agency formulate the  regulations based                                                               
on science.   Elected officials have an important  role, but they                                                               
are  not  scientists  and  do   not  necessarily  understand  the                                                               
subtleties of  atmospheric and  oceanic chemistry;  therefore, he                                                               
does  not think  it is  their place  to step  in and  make short-                                                               
sighted decisions  to inhibit the  ability of  the EPA to  do its                                                               
job.    He  said  HJR  49  is  an  inappropriate  resolution  and                                                               
discouraged its passage.                                                                                                        
1:35:01 PM                                                                                                                    
JOE   GELDHOF,   Alaska   Climate  Action   Network,   said   his                                                               
organization is  interested in energy  policy and the  impacts of                                                               
climate  change on  Alaska.   No other  state in  the U.S.  needs                                                               
energy legislation more than Alaska.   While Alaska is a huge oil                                                               
producer, the  high cost  of diesel  is literally  destroying the                                                               
state's communities and  needs to be addressed.   He related that                                                               
there is  federal legislation companion to  legislation now being                                                               
considered  by   Alaska's  legislators  and  that   that  federal                                                               
legislation  is critical  to the  success of  Alaska in  terms of                                                               
economy  and environment.   He  urged committee  members to  work                                                               
with their  colleagues to  come up with  a better,  more positive                                                               
resolution that  is oriented  to the actual  needs of  Alaska and                                                               
the nation.   Alaska's legislators know the  building blocks that                                                               
are  needed  to move  forward  with  a coherent  national  energy                                                               
policy;  for example,  Alaska needs  federal  loan guarantees  of                                                               
approximately  $40  billion  to  move  Alaska's  gas  to  market.                                                               
Alaska  clearly needs  the  federal resources  that  go with  the                                                               
adaptation and mitigation of issues;  one issue being communities                                                               
that are literally falling into the ocean and rivers.                                                                           
1:38:17 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. GELDHOF further  noted that Alaska is  directly involved with                                                               
troop  deployments  that  are intimately  related  with  national                                                               
security and energy  policy.  All the polling data  in Alaska and                                                               
most of the polling data in  the U.S. indicate that citizens want                                                               
to  reduce the  nation's  almost suicidal  dependence on  foreign                                                               
energy sources.   He urged members to step  back and re-calibrate                                                               
this, and  in a  positive way give  U.S. Senators  Lisa Murkowski                                                               
and  Mark Begich  what Alaska  wants to  see in  an energy  bill.                                                               
Alaska's   legislators  are   like   President   Obama  and   the                                                               
administrator of EPA  in that no one  wants to have to  do any of                                                               
1:40:15 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  GELDHOF stated  that, according  to discussions  he has  had                                                               
with U.S.  Senator Lisa Murkowski  and her staff,  the likelihood                                                               
of Senate  Joint Resolution 26  passing the U.S. Senate  is close                                                               
to zero  and signing by the  president is zero.   Alaskans should                                                               
not get  balled up in the  politics of Washington, DC.   Instead,                                                               
Alaska should provide  the building blocks that  are necessary to                                                               
move forward,  be it loan guarantees  or anything else.   The cap                                                               
and trade  bill is  essentially dead.   Alaska's  legislators can                                                               
contribute  to  a  decent  energy  bill.    He  noted  that  when                                                               
confronted  with  the  ozone  layer issue  25  years  ago,  then-                                                               
President Ronald  Reagan took  the advice  of the  scientists and                                                               
worked  off the  Montreal  Protocol.   Alaska  can  come up  with                                                               
something  positive  by  working  on this  rather  than  reducing                                                               
itself to partisan bickering and being against everything.                                                                      
1:43:06 PM                                                                                                                    
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN  disagreed  that  it  is  all  politics  because                                                               
resolutions coming  before Alaska's legislators  drive discussion                                                               
and  that is  a  positive step.   Policy  makers  put forth  much                                                               
effort to  be informed  when making  decisions.   Legislators are                                                               
working  on  an  in-state  gasline  as well  as  getting  gas  to                                                               
America, which would  reduce carbon emissions.   He asked whether                                                               
the  Alaska  Climate  Change  Network  supports  the  Alaska  gas                                                               
pipeline and getting gas to the Lower 48.                                                                                       
MR.  GELDHOF responded,  "Absolutely."   He said  he thinks  most                                                               
everyone who has  looked at the use of energy  believes that gas,                                                               
particularly Alaska gas, holds great  potential as a bridge fuel.                                                               
He is not  saying that legislators have not been  working on this                                                               
issue arduously; rather, his plea  is that legislators take their                                                               
knowledge about what  is needed to unlock  Alaska's gas potential                                                               
and unlocking hydropower to solve  the debilitating use of diesel                                                               
in the  Bush.   That would become  part of the  punch list  for a                                                               
resolution about  what Alaska  wants and how  to build  a federal                                                               
plan via the U.S. Congress.                                                                                                     
1:48:33 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  KAWASAKI inquired  whether Mr.  Geldhof considers                                                               
HJR 49 to be a partisan resolution.                                                                                             
MR. GELDOF replied it depends upon  the glasses one is wearing as                                                               
to whether it is partisan.  He said  his guess is that all of the                                                               
committee members agree on the substance  of what is needed.  For                                                               
example,  would there  be any  disagreement that  $40 billion  in                                                               
federal  loan   guarantees  is  needed  to   move  Alaska's  gas?                                                               
Agreement on  that would not be  partisan and would be  useful to                                                               
U.S. Senator Lisa Murkowski, he said.                                                                                           
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI pointed  out that the very  first line of                                                               
HJR 49 says it is the  President of the United States and members                                                               
of the  President's party that  are trying to enact  this climate                                                               
legislation;  therefore, to  him, the  resolution has  a partisan                                                               
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN closed  public testimony  after ascertaining  no                                                               
one else wished to testify.                                                                                                     
1:50:53 PM                                                                                                                    
CO-CHAIR  JOHNSON said  he wholeheartedly  supports HJR  49.   He                                                               
said  that when  the U.S.  Environmental Protection  Agency shuts                                                               
down  the ability  of  the  Fairbanks witnesses  to  use wood  or                                                               
pellet stoves  to generate  heat, they  will be  calling Alaska's                                                               
congressional delegation  and their  state legislator.   In turn,                                                               
since the congressional  delegation did not make  the policy, the                                                               
witnesses will  be told to  call a nameless,  faceless bureaucrat                                                               
that   made  this   policy.     He  said   HJR  49   would  affix                                                               
accountability  to the  local officials  elected  by the  state's                                                               
1:52:38 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  EDGMON supported  HJR  49 and  related that  U.S.                                                               
Senator  Lisa  Murkowski is  eager  to  receive this  resolution.                                                               
While  he  concurs  about  the larger  issue  of  setting  energy                                                               
policy,  scientific  analysis  does  not take  into  account  the                                                               
economic effects.  Sometimes a  forceful message must be sent and                                                               
he agrees with the resolution's intent.                                                                                         
1:54:38 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE P.  WILSON stated  that if  the climate  issue was                                                               
cut and  dried, members would  not have  to be talking  about it.                                                               
She wants to  listen to what the researchers  and scientists say,                                                               
but they are divided about what  needs to be done.  Actions could                                                               
be taken that cost the state  billions of dollars in the long run                                                               
for things  that do not  even happen in the  long run.   She said                                                               
that for  those reasons she  believes every angle must  be looked                                                               
at.   Legislators  care and  are trying  to be  careful in  their                                                               
deliberations.   People have put  faith in their  legislators and                                                               
hold  legislators  accountable   and  this  resolution  expresses                                                               
legislators' concerns.   Given this, and that a  lot of questions                                                               
remain unanswered, she supports HJR 49.                                                                                         
CO-CHAIR  JOHNSON related  that according  to a  text message  he                                                               
just received from  the counsel for the U.S.  Senate Committee on                                                               
Energy, Senate Joint  Resolution 26 would have the  force of law.                                                               
In response to Representative Guttenberg,  he agreed that it does                                                               
have to pass the U.S. House of Representatives as well.                                                                         
1:57:50 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK  agreed  with   the  previous  witness  that                                                               
opportunities to  direct change should  be taken and that  it not                                                               
be  jabs  at people  or  situations.   Such  opportunities  allow                                                               
Alaska  to  lay out  its  energy  needs; for  example,  renewable                                                               
energy should  include hydropower.  He  said he does not  want to                                                               
debate whether  climate is manmade  or natural, but care  must be                                                               
taken to  not make jabs  at people.   In this regard,  he offered                                                               
Conceptual Amendment  1 to remove  on page  1, line 5,  the words                                                               
"the President's party in".                                                                                                     
MR. COAN, in response to  Co-Chair Neuman, stated that Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 1 would be fine with the sponsor.                                                                                     
There being no objection, Conceptual Amendment 1 was adopted.                                                                   
2:01:07 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  pointed  out  that  he  agrees  with  the                                                               
language on page  4, [lines 8-10], regarding  support of measures                                                               
by the  U.S. Congress for  encouraging investments  in technology                                                               
to reduce carbon dioxide and  greenhouse gas emissions.  However,                                                               
he said  it appears  to him  that the  second, third,  and fourth                                                               
whereas clauses on  page 1 oppose the legislation  that is before                                                               
the  U.S.  Congress.   He  said  he  is  just pointing  out  this                                                               
apparent conflict and  not offering an amendment.   He added that                                                               
HJR  49  does not  include  anything  about ocean  acidification,                                                               
which he  thinks should  be included.   He  suggested it  also be                                                               
said  that this  legislature has  looked at  dealing with  carbon                                                               
emissions  because  the  Alaska  Gasline  Inducement  Act  (AGIA)                                                               
requires that  the pipeline builder  identify how it  will handle                                                               
the  carbon emission  that will  be used  in the  transmission of                                                               
that gas.   He said today's public testimony makes  it sound like                                                               
the legislature has not dealt with carbon emissions when it has.                                                                
2:03:50 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI  noted that he  still does not  know what                                                               
House Resolution 2454 actually does.                                                                                            
MR.  COAN  responded that  House  Resolution  2454, the  American                                                               
Clean Energy and Security Act of  2009, and Senate Bill 1733, the                                                               
Clean Energy Jobs and American  Power Act, are both vehicles that                                                               
institute  the ability  for  these EPA  mandates  to come  about.                                                               
These  measures open  it  up for  "cap and  trade"  and they  are                                                               
brought up in HJR 49 because  they are in Congress and will allow                                                               
this to happen.                                                                                                                 
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN commented that the  committee is debating HJR 49,                                                               
not the bills in Congress.                                                                                                      
2:05:43 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON requested Mr.  Coan to address the apparent                                                               
conflict that he brought up earlier.                                                                                            
MR. COAN replied the purpose is  to stop this vehicle of the U.S.                                                               
Environmental Protection  Agency, through  the Clean Air  Act, to                                                               
regulate greenhouse gases; the sponsor  wants to keep this in the                                                               
hands  of  elected  officials who  have  some  accountability  to                                                               
constituents.   The first  whereas clause on  page 1  states that                                                               
[House  Resolution  2545  and  Senate  Bill  1733]  are  improper                                                               
vehicles  for this  to come  about.   While the  sponsor believes                                                               
that greenhouse gases are a real  thing and are having an effect,                                                               
the sponsor  does not want  the control  to come from  an outside                                                               
entity that has the ability to come in and take over everything.                                                                
2:08:00 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said he does  not have a problem with that;                                                               
however, it seems incongruous to  oppose bills that are currently                                                               
in Congress  [page 1]  while asking  that Congress  pass measures                                                               
[on page 4].  He asked Mr. Coan  to explain why those two are not                                                               
MR.  COAN answered  that House  Resolution 2454  and Senate  Bill                                                               
1733  are  setting  out  the  ability for  the  "cap  and  trade"                                                               
requirements to come into effect as  well as the EPA to take over                                                               
the greenhouse gas  emissions.  The bills are included  in HJR 49                                                               
to illustrate where  they are currently at in Congress.   The two                                                               
bills  would  result  in   unnecessary  regulation  and  economic                                                               
interference  by the  federal government.   It  goes back  to the                                                               
issue   of  nameless,   faceless  bureaucrats   rather  than   to                                                               
constituent accountability.                                                                                                     
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN  urged  Representative Seaton  to  discuss  this                                                               
further with Representative Stoltze.                                                                                            
2:10:47 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG  commented to Co-Chair Johnson  that if                                                               
the Fairbanks North Star Borough, by  a vote of the people, takes                                                               
the authority  away from EPA  to come up  with a solution  to the                                                               
wood stove  and clean air issue,  and if the people  come back to                                                               
the legislature, then  it is because the legislature  did not act                                                               
and not because  the EPA over-reacted.  He offered  his hope that                                                               
the borough does come up with a solution to that problem.                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG continued, noting  that a lot of things                                                               
in HJR  49 are  troubling in  regard to policy  and how  they are                                                               
said.   It  would have  been much  easier to  make the  one small                                                               
amendment  and support  the resolution  unanimously.   Based upon                                                               
his  conversations with  people  who have  observed Congress,  he                                                               
thinks the Alaska legislature deals  more with energy issues than                                                               
does Congress, as well as all  national issues such as salmon and                                                               
ocean  policy.    Therefore, Alaska  legislators  have  a  better                                                               
understanding than most  members of Congress.   Regardless of the                                                               
administration, when  people from Washington, DC,  come to Alaska                                                               
they always  say how they  had not  really known what  Alaska was                                                               
actually like until  seeing it personally.  In  a resolution like                                                               
HJR 49, the  legislature could have taken the high  road and laid                                                               
it out  for them instead  of complaining about  things.  It  is a                                                               
given that  the desire is for  the elected officials to  make the                                                               
policy.    He  agreed  there  are  conflicts  with  some  of  the                                                               
resolution's statements  and some  of the things  the legislature                                                               
is working on.  He said he does  not think HJR 49, in its current                                                               
form, "gets us there."                                                                                                          
2:14:27 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  offered Conceptual  Amendment 2  to remove                                                               
the second,  third, and fourth  whereas clauses on page  1, lines                                                               
8-15, continuing to line 1 on page 2.                                                                                           
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON objected.                                                                                                      
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN objected.                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON   explained  he  is   offering  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 2 because he thinks  there is another resolution before                                                               
the  legislature that  opposes House  Resolution 2454  and Senate                                                               
Bill 1733,  and that  other resolution has  not come  before this                                                               
committee.   Therefore, incorporating  this language into  HJR 49                                                               
is like  members are presuming  to oppose a resolution  that they                                                               
have  not passed.   He  reiterated his  earlier opinion  that the                                                               
second  resolve  language  on  page 4  is  incongruous  with  the                                                               
second,  third,  and  fourth  whereas  clauses on  page  1.    In                                                               
response  to   Co-Chair  Johnson,   he  stated   that  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment  2  would take  out  all  of  the references  to  House                                                               
Resolution  2454 and  Senate  Bill  1733 for  which  there is  no                                                               
factual information available to committee members.                                                                             
2:17:58 PM                                                                                                                    
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON understood the  sponsor worked closely with U.S.                                                               
Senator Lisa Murkowski's office on drafting HJR 49.                                                                             
MR. COAN nodded yes.                                                                                                            
CO-CHAIR  JOHNSON asked  whether the  third whereas  on line  14,                                                               
page 1, specifically  came from the senator's office  and that it                                                               
is  her opinion  that  support  in the  U.S.  Congress for  House                                                               
Resolution 2454 and Senate Bill 1733 has weakened.                                                                              
MR. COAN responded correct.                                                                                                     
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON  inquired whether  the first and  second whereas                                                               
clauses on page 1 also came from U.S. Senator Lisa Murkowski.                                                                   
MR.  COAN  replied  these  two were  run  through  the  senator's                                                               
office, but were part of the  sponsor's original draft.  They are                                                               
more  to  paint  the  big  picture  of  where  the  congressional                                                               
legislation is, are they are dealt  with more in HJR 45, the "cap                                                               
and trade" resolution.                                                                                                          
2:19:00 PM                                                                                                                    
CO-CHAIR  JOHNSON expressed  his support  for deleting  the first                                                               
two whereas  clauses, but not the  third.  He offered  a friendly                                                               
amendment to exclude  deletion of the third  whereas.  Therefore,                                                               
Conceptual Amendment 2, as amended,  would only delete lines 8-13                                                               
on page 1.                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE   SEATON  accepted   the  friendly   amendment  to                                                               
Conceptual Amendment 2.                                                                                                         
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN objected to Conceptual Amendment 2, as amended.                                                                 
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON removed his objection to the amendment.                                                                        
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN reiterated his objection the amendment.                                                                         
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN,  in  response   to  Representative  P.  Wilson,                                                               
confirmed that  the friendly amendment to  Conceptual Amendment 2                                                               
had passed.                                                                                                                     
2:21:31 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI asked whether  deletion of the second and                                                               
third whereas  clauses on page 1  would make some of  the whereas                                                               
clauses  on pages  2 and  3 not  fit anymore,  given that  Senate                                                               
Joint Resolution 26 is the underlying part of HJR 49.                                                                           
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  replied no; he believes  the other whereas                                                               
clauses  are  talking  about the  U.S.  Environmental  Protection                                                               
Agency's  initiation of  these processes  through  the Clean  Air                                                               
Act.  The two whereas clause  that would be removed by Conceptual                                                               
Amendment   2,   as   amended,   are   directed   at   [proposed]                                                               
congressional  statutes and  all  the other  whereas clauses  are                                                               
asking  the   U.S.  Congress   to  develop   responsible  policy.                                                               
Conceptual  Amendment 2,  as  amended, would  just  take out  the                                                               
presumption that the proposed laws  currently before Congress are                                                               
not responsible policy.                                                                                                         
2:23:30 PM                                                                                                                    
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN maintained his objection to the amendment.                                                                      
A roll call  vote was taken.  Representatives  Kawasaki, Tuck, P.                                                               
Wilson, Olson,  Seaton, Edgmon, Guttenberg, and  Johnson voted in                                                               
favor  of Conceptual  Amendment  2, as  amended.   Representative                                                               
Neuman voted against  it.  Therefore, Conceptual  Amendment 2, as                                                               
amended, was adopted by a vote of 8-1.                                                                                          
2:25:25 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI,  in regard to Co-Chair  Neuman's earlier                                                               
question about what other nations  are doing, related that during                                                               
a recent visit  to France he learned that a  goal was established                                                               
in the 1960s to go to nuclear  power.  France now produces all of                                                               
its electric base  load, as well as a significant  portion of the                                                               
electricity of  adjoining countries, by  nuclear power.   Some of                                                               
the  countries  that  are  anti-nuclear  are  using  the  nuclear                                                               
electricity produced by  France.  He also visited  Poland, a cold                                                               
weather country that reminded him  of Fairbanks, and learned that                                                               
80 percent  of Poland's electric base  load is from coal.   While                                                               
Poland was worried about the  upcoming "Copenhagen talks," it had                                                               
a lot to look forward to  because of the incredible amount of air                                                               
pollution due  to the coal.   While Poland does not  support some                                                               
of the  European Union initiatives,  it was promising for  him to                                                               
see that  many of Poland's  young political leaders  and emerging                                                               
leaders have adopted the idea  of getting away from fossil fuels.                                                               
It  was  interesting  to  see   that  Poland  is  looking  toward                                                               
hydropower and  geothermal power,  as well as  other technologies                                                               
that have less impact on the environment.                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  KAWASAKI added  that during  his recent  visit to                                                               
Washington,  DC,  with other  Alaska  legislators,  there was  no                                                               
visible way  to tell whether a  person walking down the  halls of                                                               
Congress was  a Democrat or  a Republican.   He said he  does not                                                               
know what  section 202(a) of the  Clean Air Act does  and whether                                                               
he wants an  outright repeal of that section, and  the problem is                                                               
that neither  does anyone else  on the committee.   Therefore, he                                                               
thinks it  is disingenuous to  say that  a statement needs  to be                                                               
made when it is unknown what statement  is trying to be made.  He                                                               
said he  thinks HJR 49 is  another resolution in a  line of silly                                                               
resolutions  that  are  being  sent  to  Congress  to  object  to                                                               
something that  Congress is doing.   Along with having  no teeth,                                                               
HJR 49 fans a  lot of flames with the people  in his district and                                                               
across the  state about the  things the legislature is  not doing                                                               
while it is  in session.  An  hour and a half has  now been spent                                                               
on something that  the sponsors of HJR 49 could  have included in                                                               
a letter to Congress.                                                                                                           
2:30:12 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI  said he will  object to HJR 49  until he                                                               
knows what it actually  says.  It is a waste of  time to do these                                                               
partisan joint resolutions, he continued,  and he would prefer to                                                               
be working on something like state energy policy.                                                                               
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON moved to call the question.                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI objected.                                                                                               
A roll  call vote  was taken.   Representatives Tuck,  P. Wilson,                                                               
Olson,  Seaton, Edgmon,  Neuman, and  Johnson voted  in favor  of                                                               
calling the  question.   Representatives Guttenberg  and Kawasaki                                                               
voted  against  calling  the question.    Therefore,  the  motion                                                               
passed by a vote of 7-2.                                                                                                        
2:32:30 PM                                                                                                                    
CO-CHAIR  JOHNSON moved  to report  HJR  49, as  amended, out  of                                                               
committee with individual recommendations and zero fiscal note.                                                                 
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI objected.                                                                                               
A roll  call vote was  taken.  Representatives P.  Wilson, Olson,                                                               
Seaton, Edgmon, Neuman, and Johnson voted  in favor of HJR 49, as                                                               
amended.   Representatives Guttenberg,  Kawasaki, and  Tuck voted                                                               
against it.   Therefore,  CSHJR 49(RES) was  reported out  of the                                                               
House Resources Standing Committee by a vote of [6-3].                                                                          

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