Legislature(1999 - 2000)

04/26/2000 05:06 PM WTR

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
SB 273-OIL SPILL RESPONSE; NONTANK VESSELS & RR                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
[Contains discussion of SCR 1 and what would become HCR 28.]                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 0089                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  BARNES  announced that  the  committee  would hear  CS  FOR                                                              
SENATE  BILL  NO.  273(RLS)(title   am),  "An  Act  regarding  oil                                                              
discharge prevention, and relating  to contingency plans and proof                                                              
of  financial   responsibility  for  all  self-propelled   nontank                                                              
vessels exceeding  400 gross registered  tonnage and  for railroad                                                              
tank cars; authorizing  inspection of nontank vessels  and trains;                                                              
and providing for an effective date."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES  noted that  before the committee  was Version  Z [1-                                                              
LS1464\Z,  Chenoweth, 4/25/00],  adopted as  a proposed  committee                                                              
substitute (CS) the previous day.   She stated that there would be                                                              
limited public testimony.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0100                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JOE KYLE, Executive  Director, Alaska Steamship  Association, came                                                              
forward to testify.  He said:                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
   We  have  agreed  with Senator  Pearce  and  [Department  of                                                                 
   Environmental  Conservation]  Commissioner  Brown  from  the                                                                 
   outset  that a  bill of  this  nature is  necessary to  help                                                                 
   close the  safety net  that the state  has in its  oil spill                                                                 
   response and prevention situation  with the nontank vessels.                                                                 
   However,  we  have  been  very   concerned,  from  the  very                                                                 
   beginning, about  the impact the bill as  originally written                                                                 
   would have on  particularly our general cargo  carriers that                                                                 
   export our timber, minerals and fish products to market.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
   We still  have some  concerns with  the way  that the  CS is                                                                 
   right now,  but, in  general, we're  very supportive  of the                                                                 
   bill  in   the  sense  that   it  addresses  the   financial                                                                 
   responsibility issues,  which we have been prepared  to take                                                                 
   on from pretty  early on in the bill, and we  think the task                                                                 
   force idea goes  a long way toward alleviating  our concerns                                                                 
   about  what the  costs  may be  as  the timber,  mining  and                                                                 
   seafood exporters  come into compliance  with the  needs the                                                                 
   state has identified.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
   Number 0226                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
   CHAIR  BARNES said  she appreciated  Mr.  Kyle's mention  of                                                                 
   mining, timber  and fish.   She noted  that he had  said the                                                                 
   steamship association  is "almost completely there"  on this                                                                 
   bill.  She invited him to point  out "where you might not be                                                                 
   completely there."                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
   Number 0240                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
   MR.  KYLE responded  that the  steamship  association is  in                                                                 
   complete agreement  with the letter Senator Pearce  had sent                                                                 
   Chair  Barnes  last Friday  that  said, in  essence,  "Let's                                                                 
   address financial  responsibility and deal with  the rest of                                                                 
   these issues  in the  task force."   The association  thinks                                                                 
   the  inspections  section should  be  assigned  to the  task                                                                 
   force  as  well.    He said  they  [those  in  the  shipping                                                                 
   industry] need  to understand better what the  state's needs                                                                 
   are with  regard to inspection  authority, because  they now                                                                 
   are  "completely  inspected"  by  the  United  States  Coast                                                                 
   Guard, and foreign flag vessels  "can't even come into state                                                                 
   waters  without  a certificate  of  responsibility."    They                                                                 
   would  like those inspection  issues  addressed in the  task                                                                 
   force rather than in the statute  at this time.  That is the                                                                 
   major area of concern they still  have with the CS, he said.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
   Number 0297                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
   REPRESENTATIVE  GREEN asked  Mr. Kyle  if he  had said  that                                                                 
   foreign flag ships in Alaskan  waters are required to have a                                                                 
   certificate of [financial] responsibility.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
   MR. KYLE affirmed that.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
   REPRESENTATIVE  GREEN then asked  whether that is  inspected                                                                 
   when they are in harbors.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
   Number 0318                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
   MR.  KYLE  explained  that  foreign  flag  vessels  are  not                                                                 
   routinely inspected  on the high  seas.  But when  they come                                                                 
   into  United  States  waters,  they  have  to  pass  certain                                                                 
   declarations, one  being that they have a  valid certificate                                                                 
   of financial  responsibility.  That normally  is transmitted                                                                 
   to the ship's agent and then on to the Coast Guard.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said it was his understanding that [the                                                                    
certification] was inspected only when the ship was in port, "not                                                               
while it may just transcend to the three-mile limit."                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. KYLE said that was a generally correct way to look at it.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 0389                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
PAUL FUHS, Lobbyist, representing CSX Lines (formerly Sealand),                                                                 
came forward to testify.  He said:                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     We  have worked  on this bill  ever since  it came  out.                                                                   
     We've pulled together about  20 industry representatives                                                                   
     in Seattle to meet with Chadux,  one of the contractors,                                                                   
     to  see what their  past experience  was.   Then we  got                                                                   
     about  40  people  together   to  meet  with  the  [DEC}                                                                   
     commissioner and her staff,  to try to find out how they                                                                   
     would handle  the regulations, in  an attempt to  try to                                                                   
     identify the costs of the legislation.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     In  the process, we  identified some  things that  could                                                                   
     streamline  the process  and  help hold  down the  cost.                                                                   
     When the contingency plan requirements  of the bill were                                                                   
     taken out  of SB 273 to  create this CS,  the references                                                                   
     to  those efficiencies  -  fleet plans,  vessel  agents,                                                                   
     prevention   credits,  the   ability  of  the   response                                                                   
     contractor   to  hold   the  sea  plans   -  also   were                                                                   
     eliminated.   We understand  that you are  contemplating                                                                   
     including  those in SCR  1 in the  CS, and we  hope that                                                                   
     you do that,  because that will help the  department and                                                                   
     us really  try to bring down  the costs of  the program.                                                                   
     Once we have done that, to that  point, then I think you                                                                   
     can determine,  as policy makers, whether  you determine                                                                   
     that the  cost of the program  is worth the  benefits of                                                                   
     it.  We'll do our best to cooperate with you.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     In addition,  another cost driver  on this would  be the                                                                   
     drills and  exercises that would  be required.   I think                                                                   
     it would  be good to [leave  that to the task  force to]                                                                   
     look  at  what drills  and  exercises  are going  to  be                                                                   
     required   of  the   people  covered   by  this.     The                                                                   
     commissioner  and her staff  were very forthcoming  with                                                                   
     this  information,  but  perhaps  everyone  in  industry                                                                   
     would  feel more  comfortable  if these  are  negotiated                                                                   
     before the legislation is passed,  which I understand is                                                                   
     the approach you are taking now.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 0509                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES affirmed  that.  She said work is underway  on SCR 1,                                                              
and  the  pre-conference  committee  will  meet  immediately  upon                                                              
adjournment of this meeting to take up SCR 1.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES  turned attention to  Amendment 1, being  proposed by                                                              
Representative  Phillips [1-LS1464\Z.1,  Chenoweth, 4/25/00].   It                                                              
read:                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, lines 3 and 4:                                                                                                     
          Delete "authorizing inspection of nontank vessels                                                                     
     and trains;"                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, line 28, through page 4, line 15:                                                                                  
          Delete all material.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Page 5, line 30:                                                                                                           
          Delete "secs. 1 - 6"                                                                                                  
          Insert "secs. 1 - 4"                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Page 5, line 31:                                                                                                           
          Delete "Sections 7 and 8"                                                                                             
          Insert "Sections 5 and 6"                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Page 6, line 1:                                                                                                            
          Delete "sec. 9"                                                                                                       
          Insert "sec. 7"                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0562                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS  made a motion to adopt Amendment  1.  She                                                              
explained that  the basic  purpose of the  amendment is  to remove                                                              
the issue of inspections from the  bill before the committee.  The                                                              
amendment deletes  the reference to  inspections in the  title and                                                              
deletes a  section in the  bill that  deal with inspections.   She                                                              
stated:                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     In Senator Pearce's letter to  Chair Barnes, she did not                                                                   
     discuss the issue  of inspections to be included  in the                                                                   
     bill,   only  the  financial   responsibility  and   the                                                                   
     creation  of  a  task  force.    I  do  not  think  this                                                                   
     inspection authority is needed  to check the certificate                                                                   
     of financial responsibility,  and that this [inspection]                                                                   
     definitely is  something that should  be left up  to the                                                                   
     task  force.  To  set procedures  for inspections  could                                                                   
      find us and the department in a matter of great cost                                                                      
     ....                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS  said she  had questioned, since  early in                                                              
the  session, whether  it  is the  DEC's role  to  be involved  in                                                              
inspections.   The Coast Guard  already does inspections,  and the                                                              
observer program already inspects  the processor ships.  She asked                                                              
where the  DEC fits in  here, doing inspections.   She  said there                                                              
are a lot  of questions there, and  it is something that  the task                                                              
force should address and come back with recommendations on.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0652                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOULE  asked  whether  it  is the  intent  of  the                                                              
amendment to remove inspections from the railroad, too.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PHILLIPS  said she  was  addressing  the issue  of                                                              
inspections in relation  to the whole bill, and leaving  it to the                                                              
task  force to  come  back  with recommendations  [including  both                                                              
ships and trains].                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  BARNES, at  the request  of  Representative Masek,  invited                                                              
Senator Pearce to come forward.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
[Senator Pearce deferred to the representative  from DEC to answer                                                              
the questions regarding inspection.]                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 0718                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
LARRY  V. DIETRICK,  Director, Division  of  Spill Prevention  and                                                              
Response, Department  of Environmental Conservation,  came forward                                                              
to  testify.   He  said the  inspection  section  of the  proposed                                                              
legislation does not create or make  any new activities subject to                                                              
inspection.   It simply  extends the  existing [DEC] authority  to                                                              
nontank  vessels and  to the railroad.   He  added, "The  language                                                              
that you  have here is actually  the language that was  crafted in                                                              
1990 in HB 567, when there was also  quite a debate."  He said the                                                              
existing  inspection language  focuses  DEC  inspections on  areas                                                              
over which that  agency has jurisdiction, which  basically consist                                                              
of  the   response  capability  and   prevention  aspects.     The                                                              
department  has reviewed this  inspection language;  it is  not in                                                              
conflict with the  recent U.S. Supreme Court decision  that allows                                                              
states  to  verify   and  have  continued  oversight   for  spill-                                                              
contingency  plans and  proof of  financial  responsibility.   Mr.                                                              
Dietrick stated:                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     Because this has been such an important issue to Alaska                                                                    
     over the years, DEC since 1992 has developed a detailed                                                                    
     memorandum  of  agreement  with  the  Coast  Guard  that                                                                   
     outlines  in explicit  terms  our respective  roles  for                                                                   
     vessel  inspection  activities to  ensure  coordination,                                                                   
     eliminate  duplication, prevent  overlap  and avoid  any                                                                   
     jurisdictional   conflicts  under   state,  federal   or                                                                   
     international  law.   In addition,  ... we  have a  very                                                                   
     small staff of people who conduct  these activities, all                                                                   
     of whom have  had the appropriate training  or extensive                                                                   
     prior experience conducting  vessel inspections with the                                                                   
     Coast Guard.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK handed out copies of  the existing agreement with the                                                              
Coast  Guard that  outlines current  procedures and  coordination.                                                              
He said DEC would  prefer to have the inspection  language left in                                                              
the  bill,  "but  we also  understand  the  possibility  that  the                                                              
further  things  that would  be  subject  to inspection  would  be                                                              
identified  in the  work group,  as  indicated."   Until the  task                                                              
force outlines anything more detailed,  the only things that would                                                              
be checked by DEC would be to verify  [each ship's] certificate of                                                              
financial responsibility and oil cargo capacity.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 0862                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK  asked Mr. Dietrick how this  will affect the                                                              
inspection work DEC is currently doing.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DIETRICK  said  the  proposed CS  [Version  Z]  provides  for                                                              
financial responsibility   to begin  in December of this  year, so                                                              
DEC would  have to  go through  rule making  and disseminate  that                                                              
information to allow compliance with  the financial responsibility                                                              
provisions by the effective date.   Between that time and the time                                                              
the legislature reconvenes  would be the only window  [of time] in                                                              
which   DEC  might   conduct   spot  inspections   for   financial                                                              
responsibility.   However,  the DEC  probably would  not be  doing                                                              
much during that  window; the department's efforts  will be toward                                                              
working on the task force.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 0914                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK, inquired, "Then  this amendment won't affect                                                              
too much of what you are planning to do?"                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK said  it would not, because initially  it would cover                                                              
only   that  which   immediately  takes   effect,  the   financial                                                              
responsibility provisions.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES clarified, "Then it  really wouldn't hurt anything if                                                              
the amendment passed  and it [inspection] was taken  up as part of                                                              
the task force, in the task force report?"                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK said that was correct:   the only thing DEC would not                                                              
be  able to  do  would  be to  actually  check  to make  sure  the                                                              
financial responsibility existed for the vessels [and railroad].                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 0958                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  BARNES asked,  "Couldn't you  require financial  compliance                                                              
without inspecting  the vessels  - through certification,  through                                                              
an affidavit, or some other manner  - without having to physically                                                              
board a vessel?"                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK replied  that DEC would have to look  to other means,                                                              
perhaps  working with  the Coast  Guard, to  corroborate how  some                                                              
single-voyage vessels have met the requirement.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 0990                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COWDERY  recalled  that he  previously  had  asked                                                              
about bonding,  "which seems to be  the way that  most inspections                                                              
or requirements  of contracts or  whatever is handled  where there                                                              
have to be some  guarantees."  He then asked how  far offshore DEC                                                              
has jurisdiction.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK  said state waters extend  three miles offshore.   He                                                              
added that  DEC would not be  boarding offshore.   The inspections                                                              
are  coordinated with  the Coast  Guard  ahead of  time, and  they                                                              
typically take place while the vessels are in port.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  BARNES asked,  "So,  if this  amendment  were adopted,  you                                                              
could probably work  out something with the Coast  Guard that when                                                              
they  board to  check  for federal  waters  beyond the  three-mile                                                              
[limit], that they supply you with that information?"                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DIETRICK  said  DEC  has a  good  working  relationship  with                                                              
District 17  of the U.S. Coast Guard  in Alaska, and he  thinks it                                                              
is likely that they could work something out.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 1055                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS  observed that Joe Kyle had  just said the                                                              
foreign ships have to submit financial  responsibility through the                                                              
ship's representative  to the Coast  Guard.  "The Coast  Guard has                                                              
that information,"  she concluded.   "I can't imagine in  any case                                                              
that  the  Coast   Guard  wouldn't  be  supplying   DEC  with  the                                                              
information if they requested."                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK pointed out that the  Coast Guard would have to add a                                                              
procedure to  their duties to check  for the state  certificate of                                                              
financial responsibility.   "The one  for which they check  is the                                                              
one that's  required under  federal law,  under the Oil  Pollution                                                              
Act," he added, "and so we would  be asking them ... to also check                                                              
for the state certificate."                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1099                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOULE  noted  that  the  effective  date  on  this                                                              
legislation,  with   or  without  the  [inspection]   section,  is                                                              
September  1 of  this year.   He said  he was  wondering how  many                                                              
nontank vessels would be involved.   Also, if the task force comes                                                              
back  with  proposed  legislation,  would  anything  prohibit  the                                                              
legislature from shooting for an immediate effective date?                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DIETRICK said  the  estimated  number, discussed  in  Senator                                                              
Pearce's work group sessions, has  been about 1,000 nontank vessel                                                              
voyages per year.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 1190                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COWDERY   asked  Mr.  Dietrick  whether   DEC  had                                                              
personnel capable  of determining if the financial  responsibility                                                              
was valid, or if that work would need to be subcontracted.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES asked Mr. Dietrick to  answer another question at the                                                              
same time:   "Since you already  have tanker vessels that  have to                                                              
comply with this provision, would  you not already have that means                                                              
in place?"                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK said he was sure that  was correct.  Those procedures                                                              
in place  now are to receive  from tankers the  documentation that                                                              
demonstrates  their   financial  responsibility.     They  [tanker                                                              
owners] submit  that to  DEC ahead  of time,  it is reviewed,  and                                                              
then  DEC issues  a certificate  of  financial responsibility,  he                                                              
explained.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 1250                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  BARNES summarized,  "They are  literally going  to have  to                                                              
show  you that  they  have financial  responsibility,  and if  our                                                              
amendment were  to pass, they'd still  have to do that.   The only                                                              
thing you wouldn't have is boarding the vessels?"                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK  said that  is correct.   Under the law,  they should                                                              
still provide DEC  with that information up front,  and DEC should                                                              
still  issue  the   certificate  up  front  for  them   to  be  in                                                              
compliance.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1275                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES followed  up:  "And then you could,  if her amendment                                                              
were  to pass,  take that  up in  the working  group [task  force]                                                              
under  SCR 1,  correct?   You'd really  not lose  anything if  our                                                              
amendment passed, ... other than boarding the vessels."                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK said  that is correct.  He added that  DEC would have                                                              
serious concern  if the  inspection language  were taken  out now,                                                              
because  the  financial  responsibility  requirements  would  take                                                              
effect, leaving DEC  without the ability over the  long haul to do                                                              
the spot checks if the legislature  chose not to act next session.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 1315                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COWDERY asked  whether DEC  has people trained  in                                                              
accounting  and  financial  matters, qualified  to  determine  the                                                              
validity of documents and things like that.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DIETRICK said  DEC has  one  person who  specializes in  that                                                              
area,  who  works with  the  risk  management division  and  other                                                              
insurers to validate  the documents and determine  that they [ship                                                              
owners]  have  the  financial  resources  and that  the  money  is                                                              
available.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  BARNES invited  further questions  and  comments.   Hearing                                                              
none,  she asked  if  there was  any objection  to  Representative                                                              
Phillips's motion to adopt Amendment 1.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1362                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK objected.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Upon a roll  call vote, Representatives Cowdery,  Phillips, Green,                                                              
Joule and  Barnes voted in favor  of Amendment 1.   Representative                                                              
Masek voted against  it.  Therefore, Amendment 1  was adopted by a                                                              
vote of 5-1.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 1396                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PHILLIPS   moved  to  adopt  a   House  concurrent                                                              
resolution  (HCR)  that  would provide  authority  to  delete  the                                                              
inspection phrase  from the title.   She indicated a draft  HCR to                                                              
allow the title change, version A, was before the committee.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK objected.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Upon a roll  call vote, Representatives Cowdery,  Phillips, Green,                                                              
Joule and  Barnes voted  in favor of  adopting a House  concurrent                                                              
resolution; Representative Masek  voted against it.  Therefore, it                                                              
was adopted  by a vote of 5-1.   [This HCR later was  numbered HCR                                                              
28; version  D (1-LS1638\D) of HCR  28 was labeled as  having been                                                              
introduced 4/28/00 by the House Finance Committee.]                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 1445                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES  addressed fiscal  notes in  committee packets.   She                                                              
acknowledged  that  a  new  fiscal  note  had  been  received  the                                                              
previous day from DEC, which is proposing  that DEC be given a new                                                              
person under  this legislation.   She stated, "I would  propose to                                                              
the committee  that we zero out  the new person, that  they should                                                              
be able to accomplish this, since they have been working on it."                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 1467                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS  asked if that  [person] was for  the task                                                              
force or for the bill.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
[There was inconclusive informal discussion.]                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 1474                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES said  the fiscal note to which she  was referring was                                                              
at  the top  of the  packet and  marked  HCS CSSB  273(WTR).   She                                                              
explained:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     They're asking  for $210,600, and I think  that personal                                                                   
     services line  should be zeroed  out.  I'd like  to know                                                                   
     why they need  $125,400 for contractual [work],  and I'd                                                                   
     like  to  know why  they  need  new equipment  ....  I'm                                                                   
     wanting  us  to authorize  the  travel, because  I  know                                                                   
     there will  be travel.   I want  to understand what  the                                                                   
     contractual  is  going to  be  used  for, and  zero  out                                                                   
     everything  else, because we  are at  a point where  any                                                                   
     huge fiscal note  coming tied to anything  may be zeroed                                                                   
     out altogether.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 1524                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  PEARCE said  the conference  committee  on the  operating                                                              
budget has  been keeping  track of  the fiscal  notes and  has had                                                              
this number plugged in.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES  interjected, "They  didn't have  this number.   They                                                              
had the original $125,000."                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1543                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  PEARCE reminded  the committee  that there  had been  two                                                              
fiscal  notes  (plus  the  railroad's)  with  the  original  bill.                                                              
"Those two added together were more than $210,000," she said.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  BARNES replied,  "But  the  railroad was  non-general  fund                                                              
dollars, so that wouldn't fall into our budget.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  PEARCE  said that  is  right,  but  in addition  [to  the                                                              
railroad dollars],  there were two  fiscal notes  accompanying the                                                              
original SB  273.  She  suggested that  Mr. Dietrick can  speak to                                                              
the  [issue  of  the] environmental  specialist.    Regarding  the                                                              
contractual  services,  there  are  some technical  issues  to  be                                                              
resolved.  She stated:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     One  of the  reasons that  we  haven't been  able to  go                                                                   
     forward with  the actual bill  was because the  industry                                                                   
     was  complaining   that  they   didn't  know  what   the                                                                   
     specifics were going to be that  were required under the                                                                   
     planning  standards.  There  needs to  be some work  ...                                                                   
     done to figure out what the best technology ...                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES interjected, "So that's what the contractual is."                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR PEARCE continued, "... the  contractual language is to try                                                              
to get us to that point."                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES stated, "And that was the original."                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR PEARCE explained that the  position in the fiscal note for                                                              
the bill is  for a person to  work with the task force,  since the                                                              
task force fiscal note does not provide  for a person to staff the                                                              
task force.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1601                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   PHILLIPS  said   she  was   a  little   confused,                                                              
explaining,  "I have  two fiscal  notes from DEC,  both signed  by                                                              
Larry Dietrick; one is for $338,000 ..."                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES said that was correct.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PHILLIPS  continued,  "  ... and  that's  for  the                                                              
bill."                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES emphasized, "The original bill."                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   PHILLIPS  continued,  "And   the  other   is  for                                                              
$210,000, and that's specifically for the task force."                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR PEARCE  said no, the $338,000  figure is no  longer valid,                                                              
and the $210,000 is for the bill.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PHILLIPS  countered, "No,  it  says, 'will  assist                                                              
with the  task force  on motorized oil  transport,' and  then, 'is                                                              
tasked  with managing  participating  in,  and staffing  the  task                                                              
force.'"                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR PEARCE called attention to  the upper right-hand corner of                                                              
the  fiscal note  in  question.   "It's the  fiscal  note for  the                                                              
bill," she explained.   "The bill also speaks to  the task force."                                                              
The task force also  has a fiscal note, she said,  but it does not                                                              
include funding for a person to work on the task force.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  BARNES  explained   that  she  has  no   problem  with  the                                                              
contractual  and travel  expenses, but  she thinks  DEC should  be                                                              
able  to  handle the  work  with  the personnel  it  already  has,                                                              
especially  with   [the  state]  being   tight  on  money.     She                                                              
recommended  that  the  committee  approve  the  fiscal  note  for                                                              
$143,700.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS pointed out  that the original fiscal note                                                              
for the task force work was for $130,000.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOULE asked,  "You  are taking  out the  personnel                                                              
services to have the department [DEC]  just absorb that with their                                                              
existing personnel?  Is that right?"                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  BARNES  indicated  that was  correct;  there  were  general                                                              
comments about the two fiscal notes.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 1769                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK  explained that  there are  two fiscal notes  because                                                              
there are two  pieces of legislation.  The original  bill [SB 273]                                                              
had a fiscal note  for $338,000.  That is now  obsolete.  After SB                                                              
273 was replaced with a proposed  CS [Version Z], that fiscal note                                                              
was revised  downward to $210,000.   The third fiscal note  in the                                                              
packet,  for $132,000,  goes  with  the resolution,  SCR  1.   The                                                              
$210,000  will  kick in  with  the proposed  CS  in  the fall;  it                                                              
includes  funding for DEC  to document  the nontankers'  financial                                                              
responsibility.    The  $132,000  provides funding  for  the  task                                                              
force, which was mandated both in the CS and ...                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES  interjected, "And that's  what I was trying  to give                                                              
you the  money to do,  to do the task  force."  She  addressed Mr.                                                              
Dietrick:                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     You  have tanker  response right  now, that  you have  a                                                                   
     person that has to do that.   And you can't tell me that                                                                   
     that person is busy all the  time.  We're looking at the                                                                   
     bonding, et cetera, of the tankers,  because it couldn't                                                                   
     possibly be  100 percent of  a person's time  they spend                                                                   
     working  on  seeing  that  the  tankers  are  certified.                                                                   
     There couldn't be that many  tankers in the whole world.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DIETRICK explained  that DEC  estimates  that 400  additional                                                              
vessels [the  nontank ships]  will be required  to go  through the                                                              
financial  responsibility   review.    Many  of   them  are  tramp                                                              
freighters that  operate on 24-hour  notice over the weekend.   He                                                              
said  it  is  going  to be  difficult  to  stretch  DEC's  current                                                              
resources  to get the  additional vessels  reviewed and  processed                                                              
and to keep up  with the turnaround times so as  not to impede the                                                              
trade.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 1854                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS  referred to  the analysis section  in the                                                              
fiscal note for SB 273, and read:                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     One  Environmental   Specialist   III  in  Juneau   will                                                                   
     initially assist  with the Task  Force on Motorized  Oil                                                                   
     Transport   and  will   subsequently  review   financial                                                                   
     responsibility  documentation,  maintain the  associated                                                                   
     database,   and   issue   certificates    of   financial                                                                   
     responsibility for nontank vessels and the railroad.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR PEARCE then read from the same document:                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     The DEC is  tasked with managing, participating  in, and                                                                   
     staffing a Task  Force on Motorized Oil Transport.   The                                                                   
     task force is  directed to meet as frequently  as needed                                                                   
     to prepare  a report to  the Twenty-second Alaska  State                                                                   
     Legislature.     Contractual   services   will  be   for                                                                   
     assistance  with technical  issues in  applying the  oil                                                                   
     spill  prevention  and  response  rules  to  the  Alaska                                                                   
     Railroad  and  the  various classes  and  categories  of                                                                   
     nontank vessels operating in  the different areas of the                                                                   
     state.       The   completed    report   will    include                                                                   
     recommendations   on  changes   to   the  statutes   and                                                                   
     regulations.    Additionally,   a  facilitator  will  be                                                                   
     retained  to assist  with the  complexities in  bringing                                                                   
     together  the divergent and  often contentious  views of                                                                   
     the participating  task force  members.  Travel  and per                                                                   
     diem  is for  department staff  to  participate in  task                                                                   
     force meetings.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PHILLIPS  concluded   that  three-fourths  of  the                                                              
analysis is  based on the  task force  work, rather than  just the                                                              
person   or    job   of    reviewing   financial    responsibility                                                              
documentation,  maintaining the  associated  database and  issuing                                                              
certificates  of  financial  responsibility.    She  asked,  "What                                                              
percent of this  $210,000 can be removed [be]  here and attributed                                                              
to the task force fiscal note in SCR 1?"                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK explained  that it is roughly the  difference between                                                              
the two.   The  reason it  was bumped  up was  to accommodate  the                                                              
Environmental   Specialist  III  position   was  to   process  the                                                              
financial responsibility.   The difference  between the two  is to                                                              
cover the cost of that Environmentalist III position.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PHILLIPS asked  if the $210,000  would cover  both                                                              
the task force and processing the bill.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK  said that is  correct, processing the  400 financial                                                              
responsibility requirements for the new vessels.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  BARNES pointed  out  that the  fiscal  note previously  had                                                              
covered the inspection of the nontank vessels.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK explained:                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     I  think  ... you'll  see  in  the  note here  that  the                                                                   
     primary workload  is going to be processing  and review;                                                                   
     this  person is  not  the person  that's  trained to  go                                                                   
     onboard.    That  would be  done  with  existing  staff.                                                                   
     We're not adding anybody to do that.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES noted the request is $58,477 for a new position.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK agreed.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  BARNES  indicated  she  does not  believe  that  the  House                                                              
Finance Standing  Committee is going  to fund that position.   She                                                              
believes that if  [this current committee] took one  of the fiscal                                                              
notes  and   gave  them   $143.7  thousand,   which  would   cover                                                              
contractual and  travel, they would  be in good shape,  because it                                                              
is more than  they originally asked  for and less than  they asked                                                              
for in this one.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK  repeated his  explanation that  the $132,000  was to                                                              
cover the costs of the task force  to do the work [now mandated by                                                              
the resolution].   DEC expects to  contract for a  facilitator and                                                              
specialist, as  needed, to  deal with any  issues.  The  amount in                                                              
addition to that is to fund the position  to process the financial                                                              
responsibilities.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES  pointed out that they  are getting $125,400  for the                                                              
facilitator.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK  added that  it also covers  travel expenses  for the                                                              
task force.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1990                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS addressed Mr. Dietrick:                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     The department [DEC] has been  working on this issue for                                                                   
     quite some time this winter,  and I know that you've had                                                                   
     a lot of meetings with a lot  of different people.  What                                                                   
     has been  the cost  to the department?   We didn't  give                                                                   
     you  extra money  during  the session  to  work on  this                                                                   
     issue.    What   was  the  amount  of  money   that  you                                                                   
     identified as  working on this issue in the  last couple                                                                   
     of months without an additional person?                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 2007                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. DIETRICK  said DEC  has not tallied  the additional  cost, but                                                              
the work  has taken up  a considerable portion  of his time.   DEC                                                              
also  has been  responding to  requests for  information, and  has                                                              
talked to  whomever is going  to be affected,  such as  the Marine                                                              
Highway System  or people from out of  state.  But the  bulk of it                                                              
has been  for his  time, working  back and  forth between  the DEC                                                              
office and the capitol.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 2027                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR PEARCE noted that adding  the additional ships - even just                                                              
[verifying]  financial responsibility  - is  not an  insubstantial                                                              
amount of work, "certainly in the  first round of making sure that                                                              
we have all  the proper paperwork, all the  proper certification."                                                              
She continued:                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     I would  suggest that rather  than just zeroing  out the                                                                   
     person  - and I  would note  that it  [the money]  comes                                                                   
     from the  470 fund, as opposed  to the general fund  - I                                                                   
     would make it  a one-year position so that  they can get                                                                   
     through the task force and the  initial certification of                                                                   
     all  the ships'  financial responsibility.    Make it  a                                                                   
     temporary person,  and then when you come  back with the                                                                   
     legislation  next year,  look and see  whether the  work                                                                   
     load that will  be attached to the contingency  plans is                                                                   
     sufficient  to  need  additional  staff  on  an  ongoing                                                                   
     basis.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES replied:                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     ...  While I  have tremendous  respect for  you and  for                                                                   
     your  opinion, I  have yet  to  ever see  a person  come                                                                   
     onboard as  a temporary that  didn't become  an instant,                                                                   
     full-time,  for-God-and-[for]ever person.  ... It  seems                                                                   
     to  me that  we  could give  you  the $210,000  on  this                                                                   
     fiscal note  and make sure  that there is  absolutely no                                                                   
     money for SCR 1.  Is that agreeable?                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  BARNES, hearing  no response,  said she  would entertain  a                                                              
motion to move the bill from committee.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 2141                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE made a motion  to move from committee SB 273,                                                              
Version  Z [1-LS1464\Z,  Chenoweth, 4/25/00],  as amended,  with a                                                              
title  change  and  the  House  concurrent  resolution,  and  with                                                              
individual  recommendations and  the accompanying  fiscal note  to                                                              
HCS CSSB 273(WTR) in the amount of  $210,000, knowing that it will                                                              
be the only fiscal  note and that there is a zero  fiscal note for                                                              
the task force.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 2151                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MASEK  objected.    She explained  that  she  will                                                              
support this bill but objects to the way it has been handled.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 2200                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES said  she thinks the sponsor "did a  very fine thing"                                                              
when  she came  forward with  a proposed  CS,  which ensured  that                                                              
there would  be a piece  of legislation  that everyone  could live                                                              
with.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE remarked that  he had voted for the amendment                                                              
[Amendment 1]  "with the  anticipation that if  I am back  in this                                                              
body that I hope  to see this legislation very early,  and I would                                                              
encourage very strongly  that those involved in  this process will                                                              
move this whole  issue forward so  that we can deal with  this and                                                              
get it out of here early in session."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 2232                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BARNES  asked whether there  was further debate  and whether                                                              
the objection was maintained.  There  being no objection, HCS CSSB                                                              
273(WTR) was  moved out  of the House  Special Committee  on World                                                              
Trade and State/Federal Relations.                                                                                              

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