Legislature(2017 - 2018)BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)

03/07/2018 01:30 PM JUDICIARY

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          SB 124-ABORTION PROCEDURES; CHILD SURRENDER                                                                       
1:34:21 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR COGHILL announced the consideration of SB 124.                                                                            
1:36:04 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR CATHY GIESSEL, Alaska  State Legislature, Juneau, Alaska,                                                               
sponsor of  SB 124, said  the purpose  of this legislation  is to                                                               
give babies the  opportunity to be born alive. The  bill lays out                                                               
the following guidelines:                                                                                                       
     When performing  or inducing an abortion  the physician                                                                    
     shall   use  the   method   that   provides  the   best                                                                    
     opportunity for the unborn child to survive.                                                                               
     A child  born alive  as a result  of an  abortion shall                                                                    
     receive  the same  degree of  professional skill,  care                                                                    
     and diligence  to preserve the  life and health  of the                                                                    
     child as  a child born  in the course of  natural birth                                                                    
     at the same fetal age.                                                                                                     
     A child  born alive as a  result of an abortion  may be                                                                    
     surrendered  to  a  physician or  an  employee  of  the                                                                    
     hospital or facility where the abortion is performed.                                                                      
        A child born alive as a result of an abortion is                                                                        
     considered to be a child in need of aid if the parent                                                                      
     is unwilling or unable to care for the child.                                                                              
        This bill applies to all abortions performed or                                                                         
       induced after the effective date. u This bill take                                                                       
     effect immediately.                                                                                                        
     This bill take effect immediately.                                                                                         
SENATOR GIESSEL  said in  Roe v.  Wade, 410  U.S. 113  (1973) the                                                               
Supreme  Court  maintained that  the  state  has an  interest  in                                                               
protecting  the life  of a  fetus  after viability.  That is  the                                                               
point at which the fetus is capable of living outside the womb.                                                                 
She  said  the  protection  of fetal  life  after  viability  has                                                               
biological justifications  and may proscribe abortion  during the                                                               
period of viability,  except when necessary to  preserve the life                                                               
and health of the mother.                                                                                                       
SENATOR   GIESSEL  referenced   Planned  Parenthood   of  Central                                                               
Missouri v. Danforth,  428 U.S. 52, 63(1976), 410 U.  S., at 160,                                                               
163. That  court upheld  the definition of  viability in  Roe. It                                                               
signifies the  point at which  the fetus is "potentially  able to                                                               
live outside the mother's womb,  albeit with artificial aid," and                                                               
presumably  capable  of  "meaningful life  outside  the  mother's                                                               
She also referenced Whitner v.  State of South Carolina, 328 S.C.                                                               
1, 7-8  (S.C.1997) that addressed  the issue  of when a  fetus is                                                               
entitled to protection.  That court held that a  viable fetus was                                                               
a  "person" for  the purposes  of  the Children's  Code in  South                                                               
1:39:38 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR GIESSEL  summarized some  of the  sentinel events  in the                                                               
development  of a  fetus.  Week  5: vital  organs  form; week  8:                                                               
eyelids  form; week  6:  brain waves  detected;  week 9;  sucking                                                               
thumb and yawning.                                                                                                              
She continued to describe fetal development:                                                                                    
     Fetal development 14 weeks after conception.                                                                               
     Finger Pads -2nd and 3rd months of pregnancy. 3rd and                                                                      
       4th months - the buckling and folding of this skin                                                                       
     layer is partially responsible  for the unique stresses                                                                    
     in  fingertip   pads.  Ridges,   the  faint   lines  on                                                                    
     fingertips  that are  the foundation  of finger  prints                                                                    
     start developing around this time.                                                                                         
SENATOR  GIESSEL  advised  that  at this  stage  of  development,                                                               
removing  the  fetus  from  the   uterus  requires  dilation  and                                                               
evacuation.  She  said  the  new   term  for  this  procedure  is                                                               
     Fetal development 23 weeks after conception.                                                                               
     By six  months of  age fingerprints and  footprints are                                                                    
     fully  developed. Three  main  patterns have  developed                                                                    
     from   the  ridges   (arches,  loops,   whorls).  These                                                                    
     patterns on  the fingertips, palms  and soles  are used                                                                    
     to grasp things.                                                                                                           
SENATOR  GIESSEL said  it's been  documented that  by 20  weeks a                                                               
fetus feels  pain. At 24  weeks there  is response to  sound. She                                                               
noted that in Alaska abortion is allowed at this stage.                                                                         
     Fetal development 27 weeks after conception:                                                                               
     Baby's eyelids  can partially  open and  eyelashes have                                                                    
     formed. The central nervous  system can direct rhythmic                                                                    
     breathing movements and control body temperature.                                                                          
     Fetal development 31 weeks after conception:                                                                               
     Baby's eyes can open wide.  Red blood cells are forming                                                                    
     in  your  baby's  bone   marrow.  Baby's  toenails  are                                                                    
SENATOR GIESSEL said a baby  would be considered term approaching                                                               
37  weeks.  She  noted  that  in  Alaska  an  abortion  could  be                                                               
performed at this stage.                                                                                                        
SENATOR GIESSEL said  the concept of SB 124 is  that babies would                                                               
have the  best opportunity  to survive at  the age  of viability.                                                               
She made the following points:                                                                                                  
   · In the second trimester, 96 percent of abortion procedures                                                                 
      are dilatation and evacuation. This is also called                                                                        
   · The Centers for Disease Control reports, in 2014 that 9                                                                    
      percent of all abortions are performed on these very                                                                      
      developed babies.                                                                                                         
   · In the U.S. about 100,000 babies each year are aborted                                                                     
      using the D&E procedure.                                                                                                  
SENATOR  GIESSEL discussed  the  following  points regarding  the                                                               
dismemberment procedure.                                                                                                        
   · It is never medically necessary to preserve the life of the                                                                
     mother in acute medical emergencies.                                                                                       
   · Dilation of the cervix takes at least 36 hours                                                                             
   · It is often guided by ultrasound, forceps grip each                                                                        
     extremity and tears it off.                                                                                                
   · The head must be crushed to remove it.                                                                                     
1:45:45 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR GIESSEL  discussed survival  rate estimates  at different                                                               
gestational ages.  At 23  weeks or  less, the  potential survival                                                               
rate is about  35 percent. The estimates rise  as gestational age                                                               
She displayed data to show  that other states and countries limit                                                               
the  age  after which  an  abortion  may be  performed.  Multiple                                                               
states  identify 20  weeks  as the  limit and  20  states ban  an                                                               
abortion once  there is viability.  She said the bill  takes that                                                               
into account  and requires  the doctor to  deliver a  viable baby                                                               
with the best chance of survival.                                                                                               
SENATOR GIESSEL  said some  people oppose  the bill  because they                                                               
don't believe it would make  a meaningful difference. She's heard                                                               
the argument  that it would  only save  2-3 lives in  Alaska. She                                                               
maintained that vastly underestimates  the impact and pointed out                                                               
that every life matters.                                                                                                        
She  displayed  pictures  of  Alaskan  children  who  have  Downs                                                               
Syndrome and noted that in  Iceland pregnant women are tested for                                                               
this  genetic disorder.  Parents  of children  with this  genetic                                                               
disorder are  told they will  be responsible for the  medical and                                                               
special education  costs for  their child. She  said the  test is                                                               
only 85 percent  accurate and she suspects  many children without                                                               
Downs Syndrome are aborted.                                                                                                     
1:50:01 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR GIESSEL noted  that Oskar Schindler received a  ring at a                                                               
reunion  with  Jewish  people  whose   lives  he  saved.  It  was                                                               
inscribed  with a  quote  from the  Talmud  that said,  "…whoever                                                               
saves a life,  it is considered as if he  saved an entire world."                                                               
She said that's what this bill is about.                                                                                        
She cited  a recent poll in  which 76 percent said  that abortion                                                               
should be  limited after the end  of the first trimester.  To the                                                               
question  of whether  abortion should  be prohibited  for genetic                                                               
issues, 64  percent agreed.  She maintained that  the bill  is in                                                               
keeping  with  the sentiments  of  Americans.  Eight states  have                                                               
identified 20  weeks as  the cutoff  for abortion  and challenges                                                               
have  been raised  in six  of those  states. She  said SB  124 is                                                               
modeled after  the federal  bill that failed  to pass  the Senate                                                               
last  month. The  only  difference  is that  this  bill does  not                                                               
identify the age of viability and  it does not provide a penalty.                                                               
She advised that she would not  oppose adding those things to the                                                               
1:52:32 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  KELLY asked  her to  clarify  that nothing  in the  bill                                                               
encourages  abortions   for  genetic  disorders  such   as  Downs                                                               
SENATOR GIESSEL  said she called  out Iceland to  demonstrate how                                                               
far an abortion mandate can  go. She added, "These are productive                                                               
individuals and absolutely should be  given the opportunity to be                                                               
born alive."                                                                                                                    
1:53:42 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said his research  shows that the earliest a                                                               
premature baby can survive is 21 weeks  and 4 or 5 days. He asked                                                               
if she agrees.                                                                                                                  
SENATOR GIESSEL replied that is  approximately correct at present                                                               
but  technology  is  always  improving, which  is  why  the  bill                                                               
doesn't identify an age of viability.                                                                                           
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI directed attention  to the DHSS 2016 Induced                                                               
Termination of  Pregnancy Statistics publication that  her office                                                               
provided.  On  page  6  it  says that  99.5  percent  of  induced                                                               
terminations  in  Alaska  were  performed at  13  weeks  or  less                                                               
gestational age. He asked if she had any reason to dispute that.                                                                
SENATOR GIESSEL said no.                                                                                                        
CHAIR COGHILL said this is an issue  that is near and dear to his                                                               
heart  and  he  appreciates  the  sponsor  bringing  it  forward.                                                               
Abortion is  a question  that is  discussed as  a moral  issue, a                                                               
legal  issue, and  a  political  issue but  it's  really a  child                                                               
issue. Roe v. Wade made it  a legal issue and people like himself                                                               
are trying to value a life under  the rule of law in the best way                                                               
possible. People  who are very,  very prolife don't  believe this                                                               
bill goes  far enough. It  preserves the woman's right  and still                                                               
gives the child a chance to be treated well.                                                                                    
He asked Ms. Nore to go through the sectional analysis.                                                                         
1:57:25 PM                                                                                                                    
KARI   NORE,  Staff,   Senator   Cathy   Giessel,  Alaska   State                                                               
Legislature  Juneau,  Alaska  provided  the  following  sectional                                                               
analysis for SB 124, version U:                                                                                                 
     Section   1:  Amends   AS  18.16.010   by  adding   new                                                                    
     subsections  to  provide for  a  physician  to use  the                                                                    
     method of terminating the  pregnancy that best provides                                                                    
     for the  unborn child  to survive outside  the mother's                                                                    
     womb. It  requires health practitioners present  at the                                                                    
     procedure to  exercise the same degree  of professional                                                                    
     practice  and diligence  to preserve  the  life of  the                                                                    
     viable child born as would  be provided to a child born                                                                    
     through   the  course   of   natural  birth.   Provides                                                                    
     definitions    for   "alive,"    "clinical   judgment,"                                                                    
     "fertilization," and "fetal age."                                                                                          
     Section  2: Amends  AS 18.16  by adding  a new  section                                                                    
     that would allow a parent  of a child born alive during                                                                    
     the process of an abortion  to surrender the child to a                                                                    
     physician or  employee of the  hospital. The  person to                                                                    
     whom  the child  had been  surrendered will  notify the                                                                    
     Department of  Health and  Social Services  as required                                                                    
     under AS 47.10.013(d).                                                                                                     
     Section 3: Amends AS 47.10.011  and adds a provision in                                                                    
     the Child  in Need  of Aid (CINA)  statue to  include a                                                                    
     child born alive during the  termination of a pregnancy                                                                    
     whose parent  is unwilling  or unable  to care  for the                                                                    
     Section 4: Adds an  applicability provision that states                                                                    
     that  AS   18.16.010(k)-(m),  added   by  Sec.   1,  AS                                                                    
     18.16.012,  added  by  Sec. 2,  and  AS  47.10.011,  as                                                                    
     amended  by  Sec. 3  apply  to  abortions performed  or                                                                    
     induced  on  or  after  the effective  dates  of  those                                                                    
      Section 5: Provides for an immediate effective date                                                                       
     for this Act                                                                                                               
1:59:25 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI referenced  the language  in Section  1 and                                                               
asked which methods of abortion allow for a child to survive.                                                                   
SENATOR GIESSEL said that would be an induced delivery.                                                                         
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI asked  if a  hysterotomy (c  section) is  a                                                               
safer method of abortion.                                                                                                       
SENATOR GIESSEL  said yes, and if  it's a question of  saving the                                                               
mother's life, a c section would be done.                                                                                       
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if a c section is major surgery.                                                                     
SENATOR GIESSEL  replied some regard  it as that but  it's become                                                               
rather minimal surgery.                                                                                                         
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  said the information he's  seen indicates a                                                               
woman who has had a c section  stays in the hospital 2-3 days and                                                               
is recommended  to stay off work  for six weeks. He  asked if she                                                               
SENATOR GIESSEL said it depends  on the woman and her fundamental                                                               
CHAIR COGHILL  said his daughter had  twins with a c  section and                                                               
she had two  days of rest with  the twins and then  she went back                                                               
to work.                                                                                                                        
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  referenced a document from  the Mayo Clinic                                                               
that  said,  "After  a  c  section you  face  a  higher  risk  of                                                               
potentially  serious  complications  in a  subsequent  pregnancy,                                                               
including  problems with  the placenta."  He asked  if she  would                                                               
agree with that statement.                                                                                                      
SENATOR GIESSEL  replied a  phenomenal number  of c  sections are                                                               
done in  this country. It's become  a very common way  to deliver                                                               
babies and  it's an  overstatement to  say it  jeopardizes future                                                               
pregnancies or the life of the mother.                                                                                          
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI responded that it's  a direct quote from the                                                               
Mayo Clinic. Noting  that 21 weeks and 4 days  was the earliest a                                                               
premature  baby has  survived,  he asked  how  many abortions  in                                                               
Alaska in the last five years were done after 21 weeks.                                                                         
SENATOR GIESSEL replied those numbers are  on page 11 of the DHSS                                                               
2016  Induced Termination  of  Pregnancy Statistics  publication.                                                               
She  directed attention  to the  category of  "Not Stated"  which                                                               
could mean  those not wanting  to admit the  age of the  child at                                                               
the time of the abortion.                                                                                                       
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if she  agrees that in 2016 there were                                                               
zero abortions at 21-24 weeks.                                                                                                  
SENATOR  GIESSEL agreed  and pointed  out that  four were  in the                                                               
"Not Stated" category  and two are in the 17  to 20-week bracket.                                                               
She said  technology is  always improving  and she  believes that                                                               
every life is worth saving.                                                                                                     
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  noted that  the lowest  recorded age  for a                                                               
surviving  fetus  in  the  world  is 21  weeks.  He  asked  if  a                                                               
physician  would  be required  to  perform  a different  type  of                                                               
abortion procedure on fetuses under 21 weeks.                                                                                   
CHAIR  COGHILL  requested  he  share   the  document  with  world                                                               
statistics  with  the committee.  He  asked  him to  restate  the                                                               
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  said a baby born  May 20, 1987 at  21 weeks                                                               
and five  days was the  earliest premature  baby in the  world. A                                                               
more recent  document said a baby  was born at 21  weeks and four                                                               
days. If  the bill passes, he  asked if physicians would  have to                                                               
perform induced labor or a  hysterotomy if the gestational age is                                                               
younger than 21 weeks and four days.                                                                                            
SENATOR GIESSEL replied it is  left to the professional judgement                                                               
of  the physician.  She  added that  because  gestational age  is                                                               
often incorrect,  it's not  advisable to set  a specific  date in                                                               
these situations.                                                                                                               
CHAIR COGHILL  asked if ultrasound  or other technology  helps to                                                               
determine gestational age.                                                                                                      
SENATOR GIESSEL  confirmed that ultrasounds  are very  helpful in                                                               
determining gestational age and viability.                                                                                      
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI  noted  that  since 1999,  0.5  percent  of                                                               
abortions  are done  at 13  weeks or  earlier. He  asked if  it's                                                               
possible  to induce  labor or  perform a  hysterotomy that  would                                                               
save the life of a child at 13 weeks gestational age.                                                                           
SENATOR  GIESSEL said  the  bill doesn't  limit  the age  because                                                               
technology advances may make that possible at some point.                                                                       
SENATOR COGHILL commented on technologic  advances in other areas                                                               
and said,  "We're continually  trying to figure  out ways  how we                                                               
guard that life."                                                                                                               
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI   asked  if  it's  accurate   that  if  the                                                               
technology  were to  improve, any  woman who  wanted an  abortion                                                               
would need to have a c section.                                                                                                 
SENATOR  GIESSEL  replied the  bill  doesn't  make that  dramatic                                                               
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked  if she would agree  that's the effect                                                               
of the bill.                                                                                                                    
SENATOR   GIESSEL  clarified   that  the   bill  says,   "In  the                                                               
professional judgment  of the physician,  if viability  is likely                                                               
then  the best  opportunity for  survival  must be  given to  the                                                               
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked  if there are criminal  penalties if a                                                               
physician violates the provision.                                                                                               
SENATOR  GIESSEL said  she  purposely did  not  include that  but                                                               
would  welcome an  amendment. The  physician is  required to  use                                                               
their ethical and professional judgment.                                                                                        
2:11:42 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI directed  attention  to page  2 lines  5-7,                                                               
that  defines "alive."  He asked  if "spontaneous  respiratory or                                                               
cardiac function or  pulsation of the umbilical  cord means after                                                               
removal from the womb.                                                                                                          
SENATOR GIESSEL said yes.                                                                                                       
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  said he assumes pulsation  of the umbilical                                                               
cord happens very early on.                                                                                                     
SENATOR GIESSEL  said pulsation of  the umbilical  cord indicates                                                               
the circulatory system is functioning.                                                                                          
CHAIR  COGHILL said  if he  were to  look at  accountability he'd                                                               
start  with the  reporting.  He  opined that  based  on the  2016                                                               
report, the DHSS fiscal note will be easy to challenge.                                                                         
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI directed  attention to  the definitions  of                                                               
induced termination  procedures in Appendix  A on page 18  and 19                                                               
of the DHSS 2016 report. Noting  that she said that induced labor                                                               
and a  hysterotomy provided the  best opportunity for  the unborn                                                               
child  to survive,  he asked  which  of the  procedures would  be                                                               
induced labor.                                                                                                                  
SENATOR GIESSEL said  none of the listed  procedures would result                                                               
in a live  birth. "There's no way that  induced delivery, induced                                                               
labor would be listed here. It's not a way to kill the baby."                                                                   
2:16:58 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI read  the language on page 1,  lines 7-9. He                                                               
said  if  induced  labor  isn't   a  method  of  terminating  the                                                               
pregnancy, that  leaves a  hysterotomy or  c section.  Should the                                                               
bill pass, every  woman in Alaska who wants an  abortion would be                                                               
required to get  a c section if the physician  determines that is                                                               
the best way to  save the child. He asked if  she agreed with his                                                               
SENATOR GIESSEL said  she was somewhat tempted to  suggest he was                                                               
practicing medicine without a license.  She said the normal way a                                                               
pregnancy is  terminated is  with the delivery  of the  baby. The                                                               
methods listed on  page 18 of the report  are induced termination                                                               
procedures that do not result in a live birth.                                                                                  
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  said he didn't  have any  medical expertise                                                               
but the  language in Section 1  seems to leave a  woman who wants                                                               
to  terminate a  pregnancy with  the only  option of  having a  c                                                               
SENATOR  KELLY read  the definition  of  "Induced Termination  of                                                               
Pregnancy" on page  18 of the report and said  he didn't think it                                                               
followed that the woman would have to have a c section.                                                                         
CHAIR COGHILL  added that termination  of pregnancy  that results                                                               
in a live birth  would be added to the statutes  if the bill were                                                               
to pass.                                                                                                                        
2:20:03 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR GIESSEL said the subject of  c section came up because it                                                               
is a method of terminating a  pregnancy that would be employed if                                                               
it were an  emergency procedure to save the mother's  life. A D&E                                                               
is not an emergency procedure because  it takes at least 36 hours                                                               
to dilate the cervix.                                                                                                           
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI  asked  for   confirmation  that  the  bill                                                               
doesn't seek to ban D&Es.                                                                                                       
SENATOR GIESSEL replied it is a procedure called dismemberment.                                                                 
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI  asked  if  she  was  seeking  to  ban  the                                                               
SENATOR GIESSEL  responded that  the procedure  involves dilating                                                               
the  cervix  and  entering  it   with  a  tool  that  grasps  and                                                               
dismembers pieces of babies.                                                                                                    
CHAIR  COGHILL said  that  for some  people,  the controversy  is                                                               
there should never be any dismemberment.  Not at at any stage. He                                                               
agrees  with  that viewpoint.  The  bill  maintains the  mother's                                                               
right to  terminate the  pregnancy and  directs the  physician to                                                               
use their clinical  judgment and use the  procedure that provides                                                               
the  best  opportunity  for  the unborn  child  to  survive.  The                                                               
question of viability rests with the physician.                                                                                 
SENATOR  GIESSEL confirmed  that viability  is the  basis of  the                                                               
CHAIR  COGHILL  thanked the  sponsor  for  the introduction.  His                                                               
intention   is  to   take  public   testimony  Monday,   consider                                                               
amendments on  Wednesday, and move  the bill either  Wednesday or                                                               
2:23:10 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR COGHILL held SB 124 in committee.                                                                                         

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
SB 124 - Letters of Support.pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 124
SB 124 - Sponsor Statement.pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 124
SB 124 - Sectional Analysis (Ver. U).pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 124
SB 124 - Supporting Document - 2016 ITOP Report.pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 124
SB 124 - Supporting Document - NYT Premature Babies May Survive at 22 Weeks if Treated, Study Finds.pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 124
SB 124 - Written Testimony - Alaska Family Action.pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 124
SB 124 - Supporting Document - State Policies on Later Abortions 2-1-18.pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 124
SB 124 - Written Testimony - Kimberly Ford.pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 124
SB 124 - Written Testimony - Kitri Walker.pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 124
SB 124 - Written Testimony - Michael Pankion.pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 124
SB 124 - Written Testimony - Tucker Tillman.pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 124
SB 109 - Version A.PDF SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 109
SB 109 - Transmittal Letter.pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 109
SB 109 - Sectional Summary (Ver. A).pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 109
SB 124 - Presentation.pdf SJUD 3/7/2018 1:30:00 PM
SB 124